Q: OK for starters please tell me a little bit about yourself. A little bit from the past and a little bit from the present.
A: I’m an art teacher at a small private arts school in Michigan, US. I’m a hardcore kid still, and if I didn’t have to work, I’d still be doing the same thing – teaching art, doing art, going to shows, taking photos, going to the beach, eating vegan food, etc.
I grew up with an aunt and uncle and two cousins after my parents died when I was seven. Those cousins are sisters to me, and I have two ‘real’ sisters and a brother as well. We are close and talk pretty regularly. I was a pretty boring, regular kid, but I knew that I wanted to do something bigger with my life, so I joined the Navy right out of high school, mostly because I didn’t know what else I wanted to do, but I knew that I had to leave the house and do something away from home. I’ll talk more about that later.
After the Navy I went to art school in Ohio, then to Vermont to work for two years, then to graduate school in Syracuse, NY, where I became involved in the punk/hardcore scene.
Q: I want to hear about how you got in touch with hardcore punk? You're the oldest person that I know that is going to shows and is still involved in this community, so please there me how did it all started for you?
A: So, I think I found it like everyone else ... through friends in the community. It’s funny, I still talk to those first punk kids that I met back then in 1987-89; Niels Hobbs, Noah and Kerrie Cunningham, DJ Rose, Karl Buechner, Guav, Scott Smith, Jen Sullivan and others. It’s funny how the core of the scene back then is still involved and consider themselves “hardcore kids” or “punks” or whatever, and are all doing amazing, positive, creative things with their lives.
I still go to shows because it’s where I feel the most at home. I just fit in there, y’know? I think that it’s the same feeling for a lot of people that go to shows – the hardcore scene becomes a family in the truest sense of the word, and as long as there are like-minded souls around, that family is the most vital thing in our lives. When a hardcore scene “works”, it’s the best thing there is – something real, honest, vital and a source of energy and belonging that doesn’t exist in so many other areas of life.
Q: I also know that you were in the US Navy. What made you join in? What positive and negative impact had it had on your life? Were you in a real combat?
A:I joined when I was still a kid in so many ways, and I don’t think I really knew what I was getting into. It was the strangest experience in my life. I met so many different people, and have a couple friends from that time that I still keep in contact with. There were times when it was the most boring experience, and then I would have the most difficult or most exciting thing happen out of the blue. There are too many stories from those times to talk about all of them here. Suffice it say that the day I got out of the Navy was the happiest day of my life.
I was on an aircraft carrier (USS John F. Kennedy) the whole time, and it’s the most unnatural living situations you could imagine. I slept in a room with 60 other guys. You had to stand in line for … everything (take a shower, eat, get an aspirin, get off the ship on liberty, it was noisy and smelly all the time, etc.) There were cool people on the ship, and there were totally evil people there too. I learned a lot about the world and life when I was in, and I think that I came out really sure about what I wanted to do and where I wanted to go and what kind of person I wanted to be. Being in the Navy was a life changing experience, and I honestly don’t know what my life would be like now if I hadn’t had enlisted. I experienced and witnessed disturbing, brutal behavior and events, and I also experienced kindness and humanity and saw things that I never thought I would have.
We weren’t involved in “official” combat, but we participated in “aggressive actions” against a few countries, most notably Libya, when I was on board. These were, of course, never part of a declared “war” or anything, and stuff happened that most people will never find out about, simple because it wasn’t legal or declared, etc. I saw people die, I fought fires (I was on the at-sea fire fighting team – the NFP – and we had to train all the time and respond to drills and actual fires, which there were a lot of). I also had to work in an office and prepare paperwork and transportation for everyone getting transferred or discharged from the ship. This was a big responsibility for someone who was only 17 or 18 years old, and it forced me to “grow up” pretty fast. After folks found out that I had these big responsibilities, I gained a lot of friends in influential places on the ship. This resulted in my getting special “privileges” on the ship – better food, better medical treatment, more access to supposedly “secret” places on the ship, etc.
Like I said, there are so many stories I could tell about my time on the ship … I’ve put up some of them on my journal if you want to read them (mckaig. livejournal. com).
Q: Ok so you're an art teacher now in from what I know one of the best art schools in the USA. How did that story of your life start and how did you get to the point you're at now?
A: When I was in the Navy I realized quickly that I wanted to be an artist and an art teacher, and I applied for admission to colleges when I was still on the ship. When I got discharged, I was in art school two weeks later. It was the best feeling in the world. I just had to do art, read books, right papers, and live in a dorm room with only two other dudes. Heaven.
I’ve always been good at drawing, and have been drawn to using a similar subject matter (the portrait/figure) for some time. I feel that it has connotations and meanings that I can relate to and that communicate a sense of spirituality and empathy that I want to convey. When I was in class in undergraduate school in Ohio I just seemed to be drawn to the teaching situation – I enjoyed most of what I was doing in school, and I felt that the program I was enrolled in was teaching me interesting processes and ways of thinking. So, I just wanted to be involved in the studio and to learn about art history and contemporary artists and art issues, and it seemed natural to talk to students at lower levels about these interesting things.
I was teaching at Syracuse University after grad school, but it wasn’t paying very well and I wasn’t getting good – or any – benefits, so I looked for another job and this opportunity came about. So, I reluctantly moved to northern Michigan to beginning teaching at a new school. It was very hard leaving everything in Syracuse – friends, hardcore shows, family, etc. But, I just couldn’t afford to stay anymore. I wasn’t able to pay my bills. At my current job, my students are very advanced in their abilities, and they work hard. It makes work very rewarding. It’s a little artistic “community” – Music, dance, theater and creative writing are also taught here, so it’s a very vibrant and intensive environment. Plus, I get summers off and go to the beach every day except when I go to shows in New England or Syracuse or wherever. Teaching is the best gig.
Q: Do you think that some of the values that have been passed onto you through hardcore helped you in being a better teacher?
A: Absolutely. I have met so many progressive, intelligent people in the scene, people that have provided a good example for me as far as general life lessons, and how to encourage people to get involved in new things. My friendship with people like DJ and Karl and Guav has been the source of so much enlightenment. These are all engaged people, so when we talk it’s often about substantial subjects, current events, social issues, etc. It’s from these people that I learned about vegetarianism and abstinence from drugs, etc. But mostly, I see in the hardcore scene people that come from humble beginnings that are aggressively trying to figure out their place in the world, and doing something to change their situation and the situation of their community – I know that you understand what I’m talking about. Think about the seminal hardcore bands from the last twenty years – bands that talk about the personal, the political, etc, in ways that are honest and challenging and … angry. These attributes – aggressively challenging what is going on around us, remaining positive in the face of so much resistance – are used in various degrees in the art studio. You have to be aggressive, honest with yourself, and positive if you want to create something that is able to communicate with your audience in a substantial way. That is what I submit to my students on daily basis, and that something that I learned from being involved in the hardcore scene.
Q: As a teacher do you focus only on teaching art or do you also get involved in other aspects of your students lives? Do they come to you with their problems etc?
A: Yeah, our school is a pretty tight knit community, so we are all on top of each other in some ways. Since my students are at that age when they are trying to figure a lot of things out (16-19), they come to me with their freak-out problems. I think that there is a strong familiarity between the students and the faculty in our department, so many of them come to us with whatever is going on with them. Also, you can imagine – we are regularly encouraging them to communicate ideas in their artwork that are often personal and substantial, so it’s not too much of a jump to talk to us about those same issues in a daily conversation.
I often talk about contemporary issues in art-making in class. If you are not familiar with these kind of issues (much of contemporary art is basically involved using various media to communicate ideas that haven’t been addressed previously, in ways that often use more accessible and more vernacular media). Dealing with issues that involve social and political situations, environmental issues, etc. are now common to what it means to be an artist. Since this is increasingly becoming the situation, I often address issues related to these larger situations concerning politics, social upheavals, environmental destruction, etc., and how other contemporary artists are addressing these issues. This area of interest is intriguing and empowering for me as a working artist, so I encourage them to be engaged in this way as well.
Q: What is your biggest passion in life apart from art? Tell me something more about it if possible.
A: Wow, that’s a biggee. I guess it would have to be … my connection to my friends and family. I am intrinsically a very social animal, so even my artwork reflects this in many ways. I find ways to be around those that are interesting, funny, positive, etc. It gives me ammunition to deal with the problems that I (and all others) face day-to-day, and of course this all has a direct connection to being involved in the hardcore scene. I talked about this before. Also, and I’m sure you know this – I love to eat. DJ says that food is my passion. It’s definitely one of them anyway.
Q: Do you still give speeches before the shows? How did you come out with that idea? It's pretty uncommon I have to say.
Have you ever been booed or something like that? What was your reaction to that?
A: I started doing it because I booked a show onetime when this band was acting stupid and saying disturbing things on stage, and people were yelling stuff at them and staying stupid things back, so I got on stage and diffused the situation that encouraged the people at the show to take the higher road – I asked them to wait till the band was finished and then talk to them afterwards and to challenge them on what they had said on stage, etc. I think that I was used to directing people in some way (from my teaching experience), so it just seemed natural to me, and I was encouraged when people gave me their undivided attention, and then mostly did what I had asked them to do.
It just started this idea for me about how I wanted shows to be. I didn’t want hardcore shows to be just another way of kids venting and being stupid and acting aggressive. I didn’t want to put my heart and soul and sweat into something that was going to rapidly fall apart, so I started just bringing up bigger, more substantial issues – just to keep people focused on (what I thought) were more important things than just running into each other at a show. I didn’t the shows to be just another way to absorb mindless entertainment – there’s already plenty of that all around us. I just knew that the hardcore scene had to be something better and more vital than all the rest of the bullshit that’s shoved down our throat.
The only time when someone really heckled me or confronted me was when I was talking (at a Fugazi show with about 1,000 people there) about the reality of tobacco use, and how it puts money into the pockets of corporations that don’t care about anything except making money off of the misery of others, and how I had seen two people die from smoking and how horrible and painful their experiences were. Some kid lit up a cigarette right in front of me and was blowing smoke in my face when I was talking. I just let him do his thing, and continued talking. When I was finished I got this big roar of applause from the folks there, which felt good – that I had reached them with something to think about. I just tried to let my ideas and actions speak for what I wanted, and let the assembled people make up their own minds. Later on, I got a couple emails from people that told me that they quit smoking because of what I had said, and of course it made me feel good about how things had transpired.
I guess it just reinforced for me that individual people can do a lot if they just do it the right way, and remain honest and transparent about their motives and actions.
The best experience I had was before The Promise played at one of my New Years shows in Syracuse. I talked about an event when I was about five years old – about how my father and mother had disciplined me when I had misbehaved (in a very positive way that I still think about on a regular basis), and about some very evocative memories of their amazing example and how I saw that strong parenting being exhibited by my friends DJ and Sue with their kids. I said that I hoped that everyone there found someone in their lives that would be that example for them, and I encouraged them to be that example for those around them. It was a personal and humbling moment, and after I finished talking people applauded and hugged me, and then we all went off for the Promise. One of my favorite moments ever.
Q: I remember reading one of your speeches where you said something about the state of hardcore. What is the state of hardcore nowadays in your eyes? Has it improved in the past few years or hasn't?
A: I don’t think that it’s necessarily improved or regressed lately, it’s just changed. I think that most of your readers realize this, and maybe they even sense this where they are. I think that, just as always, it’s somewhat regional. Some places have really strong scenes for a long time, some places go through waves of progression and regression, and some places have shows or scenes that are very sporadic. I think that I still see real hardcore scenes and kids out there, and so I feel that there will always be like-minded souls out there that are trying to do the same thing that I am.
Q: You're pretty tight with the guys from ExC. I want to ask you about your opinion on their hard line stance on veganism and straight edge. Do you think that maybe if they took less militant approach of things they would have convince more kids to the ideas the were promoting? In other words has ExC done more harm than good to the vegan sxe movement?
A: No, they definitely have not done more harm than good. I know of so many people that have learned about vital social and political issues from listening to Earth Crisis and going to their shows. All of those guys are some of the main architects of the progressive nature of the hardcore scene as it exists today, in my opinion. I think that very often their lyrics were taken out of context and used in ways that they did not intend. If you ever talk to Karl or Dennis or Scott, for example, I think that you will find them to be compassionate, intelligent, funny, engaging people, and are far more multi-dimensional than what you might think. I think that their “militancy” is what converted so many people – Earth Crisis remained such a consistent force for positive change for so long, I think that if they would have watered down their message it would have not have had the impact that it did. By the way, they are all still vegan and straight edge to this day, from the first show that they played 19 years ago. How many other bands can you say stood by what they were talking about for that long?
Q: What are the pros and cons of being a nudist?
A: Well, as you might imagine, being a “nudist” is something that is misunderstood, at least here in the U.S. I consider myself a “naturist” – that is, I think of my body and how it’s revealed in the context of a philosophy. Gymnosophy is an actual term that applies the opinion that the human body is inherently wholesome and proper, and that no part of the body is obscene. I believe that there should be no effort to conceal the body except when it is practical (to protect one’s self from the elements, as a consideration to others that are an accepted clothing only area, etc.). There is no practical reason to conceal the body in situations where it is obviously appropriate to do disrobe – at the beach, in the park, in one’s own home with friends and family, etc. If you think about it, wearing clothing does not really conceal what your body looks like. We can all tell – usually – what each other’s bodies look like, and what sex they are, with their clothes on. Clothing doesn’t really hide any personal secrets. There are only two sets of “equipment” for people, and the obsession with hiding our bodies only contributes to – I think – the unhealthy sexualization of so many areas of our culture.
Here are some random thoughts concerning this subject:
- I often use depictions of the human body from art history when instructing my students about their own work and their connection to their artistic ancestors, but, oddly, there is revulsion to the depiction of the body in a more contemporary situation, or a negative reaction when it is discussed that our students use the nude human form as a subject matter. There is a hypocrisy between what is accepted and unaccepted by even my own students. This, I think, is a result of the unhealthy and disturbing way in which modern popular culture limits the depiction of the human form. Since, when it is depicted, it is usually in an overtly sexual context, then that is (wrongly) the only connotation attached to it. I submit that this unhealthy and inconsistent attitude towards the human body is the primary cause of this disturbing attitude; i.e. that nudity equals sex.
- Americans seem to have a particular problem in this area. We seem to be ashamed of, and at the same time, intensively interested in the human body and sexuality. It’s this strange combination of Victorian era mentality coupled with daily use of internet porn. The problem with porn, I think, is that it “de-contextualizes” the human body. It over-emphasizes one aspect of the human body, and does so in way that even doesn’t require nudity, but implies that it is. It also turns something that is inherently beautiful and wholesome (sex) and turns it into something that is forbidden and sleazy. There are, as you may know, many areas of the world that do not have this contradictory attitude towards the human body, and consequently these other countries don’t have the problems that Americans have with body/self esteem issues (especially in girls or young women), and don’t have the same problem with sexual crimes and disjointed attitudes (mostly by men) concerning what is proper behavior in a sexual relationship, etc. I also think that this relates to the many men’s extreme homophobia – They have this reinforced, disjointed view of what is expected of their role in a sexual context, and of what the body is “used” for, that when they are confronted with someone who does not fit this stereotype, they overreact. The overemphasis on hiding the body has, in many ways, resulted in more problems related to people’s attitude towards the body. If it was a matter-of-fact situation to see someone nude in a park or a beach or at home, than the depiction of the human body wouldn’t be “used” in ways that de-contextualize the actual beauty and wholesomeness of the body.
- I go to beaches in the summer that are mostly clothing-optional, and surprisingly (to an outsider) there are families, adults, children, and older couples – in other words, all kinds of “regular” people. There have been extensive psychological studies that have looked at families where children are raised in a nudist-friendly environment, and they found that these children are just generally more well-adjusted. They have better self esteem, they are better and smarter when in different social situations, and they are more mature and engaged with what his going on around them. In other words, they understand at an early age what is important – it’s not what people look like that matters, it’s what they do. When I bring friends to a nudist beach, they assume, as you might imagine, that there will be all kinds of weirdos around, doing all kinds of weird sexual things, etc. What they find out is that their impressions are just the opposite of what the reality is. Most of the “clothed” beaches I go to are rowdier, more sexually charged, louder and more inconsiderate of the situation. At all the nude beaches I go to, they are quieter, more casual, more respectful, etc. More chill, you might say. Again, the removal of clothing does not equal overt – or even subversive – sexual behavior. When the people – or, especially children – are exposed to nudity in its proper context, than what is emphasized about each person or situation is the more important thing, not the sexual nature of the human body. Even though sex and sexuality is a part of life, in this situation it is put in its proper context.
- The emphasis on clothing and accessories relates to our culture’s emphasis on the trivial and surface, not what should be emphasized – what is substantial and true and wholesome. In my opinion, fashion is about vanity and shame and living in denial. My adherence to a lifestyle of veganism and abstinence from drugs and alcohol is based on these beliefs. I try and dwell on what is proper and true – not on what is trivial and shallow. My gymnosophist philosophy is in complete alignment with these ideas. Our bodies are amazing machines that are ALWAYS beautiful and proper. An extremely influential American artist and art teacher named Robert Henri said “There is nothing more beautiful or profound or revealing of the laws of nature than the nude human form. It is among all people, not just artists, that a greater appreciation of the nude human form should develop. When we appreciate the nude human form, we will no longer have any shame about it.” He wrote this in 1910.
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